50
2 votes
Apr 22, 2015

I am going to vote 'yes' but tentatively -because the idea behind lifetime appointments is fairly sound. Since they aren't being elected, they can freely make decisions based on law and jurisprudence, instead of trying to please would-be supporters for their next election or appointment.
So, rather than imposing term limits, I would recommend a better mechanism for impeachment, and stronger controls for corruption.

*I think the current Supreme Court is fulled owned and operated by corporate interests and the 1%. We need to impeach several of them who are clearly deviating from the U.S. Constitution, and the interests of the common good.

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100
main reply
2 votes,
Apr 22, 2015

Would you mind telling us who should be impeached and what portions of the Constitution they have deviated from?

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50
2 votes,
Apr 22, 2015

I am not a constitutional scholar, but I have a friend who is. She recently graduated from judicial college in Washington D.C., and we have discussed the Citizen's United and FEC v. McCutcheon rulings at length.
Most of my opinions are derived from our talks.

She feels, (and I agree with her), that the founding fathers did not envision that freedom of speech would ever mean "money" and that groups of businessmen would ever be considered "individuals" or maintain the rights of actual human beings under the law. Currently, rights that the Supreme court is granting to such "individuals" were not meant for groups (corps), who are in essence a "legal fiction" created to shield actual humans if their corporation fails etc. This legal fiction should not be the seat for the endowment of actual human rights - but that is what the current scotus has done.

My problem with their interpretation is this: If I am a citizen, and Halliburton is a citizen, then I am at a terrible disadvantage. And, if money is speech, then the 1% has a whole lot more freedom of speech than I do. The Re-defining of words within our Bill of Rights and Constitution is subverting the original intent of the framers.

In my friend's academic opinion the original intent of allowing campaign contributions was to support candidates *in your own state* - not to funnel endless, dark money to influence politics in areas where you don't reside, or have a stake in the local decision making.

Here are a couple links with good information about where I think this court has gone awry:
npr.org/2014/04/26/306837618/justice-stevens-six-littl...the-constitution
m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/10/08/supre...citizens-united/
Here is the scotus blog, where I follow some of what they are doing regarding FEC v .McCutcheon: scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/mccutcheon-v-federal-e...tion-commission/

Who would I impeach? Scalia.

Moveon.org has listed out some compelling reasons here:
petitions.moveon.org/sign/impeach-justice-antonin

And, the Daily Beast has a decent argument for doing so here:
thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/14/remove-a-stain-o...tice-scalia.html

I wish I could offer you more, but again, I am not a constitutional scholar, but I feel, and I think many Americans do, that the scotus is not longer acting in the interests of the common good, but for the benefit of a few wealthy "citizens" - for this reason I support impeachment.

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100
2 votes,
Apr 22, 2015

If I am a citizen, and Halliburton is a citizen, then I am at a terrible disadvantage.

To remove the freedom of Halliburton to press/lobby/contribute to causes they feel the need to promote/oppose would also remove the freedom of individuals to collectively do the same. This would remove any political power from PAC's and unions. It would be a restriction to the people to freely assemble for a political cause, which is expressed in the 1st Amendment.

In my friend's academic opinion the original intent of allowing campaign contributions was to support candidates *in your own state* - not to funnel endless, dark money to influence politics in areas where you don't reside, or have a stake in the local decision making.

I happen to agree with this. Political money should not be allowed to cross state lines except in the case of the presidential election. Why should a person in Montana be allowed to donate to a Texan's run for the Senate? In the case of corporations, they usually operate across state lines. So removing their freedom to use money as speech would be in violation if the 1st. I see both sides and have to say we must allow corporations to use their money in politics otherwise the impact would be much the same as I described above. If you take away freedom of assembly of corporations, you have to take away the individuals' right to do the same.

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0
0 votes,
Apr 22, 2015

Freedom of the Press certainly does mean "money" though, as it requires resources and labor to distribute literature, or any other media.

The freedoms of "The Press" as described in the 1st amendment is not confined to "journalism" as we understand the concept to day. It referred to any publication, and was later expanded to virtually all media by implicit intent, as text publication (press) was the only form of mass media at the time of the establishment of the Constitution. Press and Speech have practically merged in modern times due to the nature of the technology, but as both are protected in similar manners, the distinction is without difference.

The federal government cannot disallow publication of political information either because it's free speech, or free press, or both. We don't have to be all that clear on which it is between the two because it is definitely at least one of them.

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-1
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

"Freedom of the Press certainly does mean "money" though, as it requires resources and labor to distribute literature, or any other media."

This is a false equivalency. Money does not equal Press anymore than the 'Gym equals Strength', or 'Plastic Surgery equals Beauty'. One may be a means to the other, but this does not make them equivalent. Besides press can be gotten without money. All you have to do is something outrageous, and you'll get plenty of press. I'll provide just one example: FEMEN, who uses nudity to spread political messaging. theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/20/naked-female-warrior...pless-protesters
(further, strength can be found outside a gym and beauty does not require plastic surgery)

Freedom of the press as given in the 1st amendment is not confined to journalism, I agree with you there - but it is limited by certain boundaries, namely "Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections. Commercial advertising receives diminished, but not eliminated, protection." (wikipedia 5/28/2014) I would have to say that political ads frequently involve false statements of fact, threats and incitement. There is no justification for this kind of scotus interpretation of the First Amendment, that gives special treatment and undue protection for political speech in the form of expensive attack ads.

Besides that, my position hinges on the abuse of the word "individual" - not "press" - therefore, you aren't actually responding to the argument I have laid out above. I am picking a bone with the creation of a legal fiction, the "corporation" and then treating it as if it were an actual human individual by endowing it with rights that were originally specified to belong to all 'men' - but not groups of men.

The problem arises here: If I am a citizen, and Halliburton is a citizen, then I am at a terrible disadvantage. And, if money is free speech, then some of us are 'more free' than others. (referencing "Animal Farm" by Orwell) Clearly, this radical inequality of expression was not intended by the founding fathers.

This is the problem I have with Citizens United and related decisions.

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100
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

Actualy, stunts are a means to leverage other people's press and media resources for your own ends, but actual distribution of media is what I mean by the Press. Also, there is not qualifier that only an individual has any of the rights described within the 1st amendment. It states "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..." It makes no distinction between individual rights or organizational right of free speech and press.

Perhaps I should have stated this point more clearly, but my point regarding freedom of press is that money is a implicit necessity of media distribution, with the distribution part being a key part of press, along with the content. The first amendment protects the distribution of media, with the acknowledged exceptions of outright false and damaging statements along with the other exceptions you mentioned (i actually disagree with SCOTUS on the obscenity point because it's far too subjective and a moving target). However, it's important to also note that the primary purpose of the 1st amendment protections of speech, press, assembly, and redress of grievances is to protect political activities, so if anything, legal restrictions on these activities will be far more likely to be blocked by the 1st.

"And, if money is free speech, then some of us are 'more free' than others." You're confusing "freedom" and "capability" in this case. You and a wealthy individual should both be protected from the government blocking your political speech. The fact that the wealthy individual has more capability and resources in order to make his speech heard is completely independent from the legal freedom to do so. I am not more free, in the legal sense, than a paraplegic, though in many cases I can be more capable. Freedom is a lack of artificial blocks of one's capability. Freedom does not mean equality of circumstance or capability.

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100
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

First, thank you for the thoughtful response and discussion. I am enjoying it.
But, again, I am going to disagree....
Press can be blogs, Youtube videos, a man with a bullhorn downtown, students placing fliers under windshield wipers, and many other things that cost little or nothing. If someone else's press picks up those activities and markets them in a larger venue, that's their choice. The fact is there are numerous way in which to express views and share them without the use of money. I agree that money can buy you more coverage, or a larger audience, but that is a matter of degree....not an on/off switch. Press, large or small, is not delineated by the language of the First Amendment.

Another problem with equating money with speech or press, is that money has a far more open-ended and limitless capacity than either speech or press. Money can be used for anything....press can only be used to disseminate information. When a silent, corporate campaign donor gives money to a candidate, there is no guarantee that the money will be used for press. It may be used for lunches, gas, airfare, bribes, hookers, drugs, alcohol, gambling or anything else. Money is a force, a power that can be utilized for any number of activities, only some of which have anything to do with speech or press.
There is a composition fallacy in your argument: When you take something limited in capacity by definition, and equate it with something limitless you endow the former with attributes that it doesn't actually have.

This is problem that former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens points out:
"While money is used to finance speech, money is not speech. Speech is only one of the activities that are financed by campaign contributions and expenditures. Those financial activities should not receive precisely the same constitutional protections as speech itself," Stevens said. "After all, campaign funds were used to finance the Watergate burglary, actions that clearly were not protected by the First Amendment."huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/john-paul-stevens-campai...e_n_5240779.html

You write:
"However, it's important to also note that the primary purpose of the 1st amendment protections of speech, press, assembly, and redress of grievances is to protect political activities, so if anything, legal restrictions on these activities will be far more likely to be blocked by the 1st."

Yes, political activities are the most important things to protect in my opinion, and so doesn't the FEC V. McCucheon decision seem disingenuous considering the recent scotus decisions killing the voting rights act of 1965? The quick and easy passage of H.R. 437? Or, when the Rhenquist court found that press in the form of distributing leaflets in was not protected?

"But in subsequent cases, the conservative justices who had emphatically embraced the money-is-speech principle didn't apply it to money solicited by speakers of ordinary means. For example, the court International Soc. for Krishna Consciousness v. Lee, 505 U.S. 672 (1992). of Hare Krishna leafleters soliciting donations in airports to support their own leafleting. The leafleting drew no money-is-speech analysis. To the contrary, the conservative justices, led by Chief Justice Rehnquist, found that by asking for money for leafleting—their form of speech—the Hare Krishnas were being "disruptive" and posing an "inconvenience" to others. In other words, in the court's view, some people's money is speech; others' money is annoying. And the conservative justices have raised no objection to other limits on the quantity of speech, such as limits on the number of picketers." (Karys, David. Slate 2010) (International Soc. for Krishna Consciousness v. Lee, 505 U.S. 672 (1992).(91-155), 505 U.S. 672 (1992). Concurrence [ Kennedy ] Syllabus Opinion [ Rehnquist ]

It seems highly suspect to me that this money=speech argument is used selectively to favor the wealthy, while similar robust protections are denied to whistle-blowers, and ordinary citizens, protesting, assembling, or otherwise exercising their rights to free speech.

No, I cannot find any good justification for the Citizens United, and FEC v. McCucheon decisions, and they reveal a corruption of principle at the highest level of our nations courts.

Relating to your definition of freedom and different capabilities, yes, we all have different capabilities, but the scotus clearly demonstrates favoritism regarding whose rights are protected, and whose are not.

Regardless of capabilities, the use of speech to undermine basic democratic functions of state has never been upheld until now. This court is dismantling old and long held ideals about what representative government means, and that ultimately, is what alarms me the most.

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0
0 votes,
Apr 22, 2015

Unless you want to keep your semantics in the rarefied realm of the abstract, I would say it is quite clear that I have more freedom than a paraplegic. But more than 'freedom', this ruling is about domination.... Further, there are three types of dominance that can be conceptualized (at least within the field of sociology).
1. A has more than B.
2. A has the ability to manipulate the game that B is required to play.
3. A has the ability to define what the rules of the game are, that B is required to play.

Citizen's United is clearly and example of the 3rd type of dominance, it is also the most devastating of the three, because it is hardest to eradicate or even identify. I am fine with the first type of domination, some people will always have more than others, I don't seek a total and fascist equality, rather a fair stake in the political system that I live under.
It's really not so much to ask, and it's something that we, as Americans, have lost in my own life time.

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-1
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

I would have to say that political ads frequently involve false statements of fact, threats and incitement. There is no justification for this kind of scotus interpretation of the First Amendment, that gives special treatment and undue protection for political speech in the form of expensive attack ads.

Would you agree that both sides of the political spectrum in the US are guilty of this? Or do you and your side of the spectrum get to choose what are false statements and whatnot?

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-1
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

Me and my side? Not sure what you are alluding to.. My "side" is the 99.9% of people who cannot afford to buy an election. 'False' and 'True' are not subject to interpretation. No one gets to 'choose' truth. It is what it is.

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-1
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

False and true are subject to political leanings. We were sold the ACA based on many lies that when pointed out as lies we were told they were the truth.

When the left doesn't get a 20% budget increase and only gets 15% we are told that the right is slashing the budget. A blatant lie that's sold as truth. So there is subjective truth and there are full truths.

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-1
1 vote,
Apr 22, 2015

Well, "subjective truth" is merely opinion, so I'm not sure what your argument is. You don't like the ACA, neither do I much, but this thread was about the Supreme Court.

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