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User voted To some extent, but I respect a non-Muslim person more.
3 votes
Apr 22, 2015

No, I look back to 9-11 and I watched millions of Muslims cheering the attacks. I watched as Muslims cheered, while contractors hung from a bridge. They were cheering bombings in Boston. Then I read how Muslims treat Christians, the death sentence for “apostasy” for Meriam Yahia Ibrahim who has also been sentenced to 100 lashes for having sex with her husband. Then I think about systematic torture and brutal executions of Christians and their children in Indonesia. And I think about Salman Rushdie and Lars Vilks, who dared to say or draw about Muslims and Muhammad, death threats and attempts.

Yet, I'm told how peaceful, Islam is, how others have hijacked the religion. But, when I read and see how the Muslim people treat others of differing faiths, how can anyone say the religion was hijacked? Have millions upon millions of Muslims been hijacked? Maybe the people who say Islam is peaceful are just picking and choosing what parts they follow or are blind to their own religion.

Yes, I have read the Qur'an (I have also read the bible both testaments) and Islam is not peaceful. So if you say you're a Muslim, you don't automatically get respect from me. For the record I am an Atheist, which would mean I would face execution under the law in many Muslim countries. But, unlike many others I wouldn't die without a fight and I am willing to kill and be killed then convert.

And yes I KNOW this will get many down votes.

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
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0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

How many Christians cheered because of the extrajudicial assassination of Osama?

Or the bombing of Iraqis?

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

Osama Bin Laden orchestrated the murder of almost 3000 people, all innocent civilians.

I believe there is a very big difference between applauding the death of Osama Bin Laden and doing the same for the death of 2996 innocent people.

Could you show us strong evidence of Christians expressing their joy after witnessing the death of civilian muslims during the Iraq war?

This topic more about respecting (or not respecting) Muslims and a little less about Christians. I believe there's a possibility of going slightly off-topic here, so I have made this topic: "Do you respect Christians?". Of course, everyone is still free to share their opinions on Christianity in both topics as it is obvious both religions are often found in the same sentences whenever there are debates surrounding them.

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

And George W. Bush orchestrated the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, almost all innocent civilians. Is it legal or acceptable to assassinate him?

How about I do you one better: How about Ann Coulter saying, "I'm getting a little fed up with hearing about, oh, civilian casualties. I think we ought to nuke North Korea right now just to give the rest of the world a warning". How many conservatives condemned her for that? How many cheered?

The point is the hypocrisy. No one condemns any group but Muslims this way.

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
linked reply
3 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

The difference between Osama Bin Laden and George W. Bush is that Bin Laden, initially, specifically planned to harm civilians whilst Bush, once again initially, planned to send his army against another.

When Bin Laden chose to execute his plan, did he know civilians would be the prime victims of this attack? The answer is yes.

What was Bush's ultimate goal, on the other hand? Do you truly believe he was planning to murder "hundreds of thousands of people, all innocent civilians"? Was it part of his plan? I do believe he was one of the worst, if not the worst President of the United States, and yet, I don't think so.

Intent shouldn't be forgotten when there are comparisons to be made between both men, now that's for sure.

"The point is the hypocrisy. No one condemns any group but Muslims this way."

Proportionally and statistically speaking, I'd guess that Jews probably are still on top of the list after numerous decades. And maybe you could throw in Americans in there are well. After all, those who refuse to see a Muslim connection in the Islamic extremist-led unrest of the vast majority of countries with high Muslim populations will usually, and sometimes even solely blame the actions of America and Israel.

There is also another form of hypocrisy, I think. It comes from those who try to believe - and make us believe at the same time - that being the most powerful man in the world, being President of the United States of America, is an easy job, or at least a job where mistakes and failures are not possible. In their hypocrisy, they will try to convince us and themselves that some other person or country could've done it better, but the reality is that they have no idea.

But once again, maybe we're going a little off-topic here, as the question is about Muslims and respecting them.

Personally, I do respect Muslims in general. I don't believe in any religion, but I respect their right to follow whatever they believe in. One thing, however, is that integration is very dear to me. If one person says the laws and teachings in his holy book are more important than my state's laws, traditions, etc. - things me and my ancestors have preserved for centuries - it is, to me, proof that this person doesn't want to adapt. And if that person chooses to openly challenge our way of living by using my country's openness against itself in order to have his book's laws and teachings prevail over everything else, this person will definitely lose my respect, because my country's past values have made it the country it is now and these values are very dear to me.

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

The difference between Osama Bin Laden and George W. Bush is that Bin Laden, initially, specifically planned to harm civilians whilst Bush, once again initially, planned to send his army against another.
When Bin Laden chose to execute his plan, did he know civilians would be the prime victims of this attack? The answer is yes.

And he planned to send his army against another in order to illegally overthrow that government, take its resources and prove his country to be supremely powerful. Why is that superior again?

What was Bush's ultimate goal, on the other hand? Do you truly believe he was planning to murder "hundreds of thousands of people, all innocent civilians"? Was it part of his plan? I do believe he was one of the worst, if not the worst President of the United States, and yet, I don't think so.
Intent shouldn't be forgotten when there are comparisons to be made between both men, now that's for sure.

So let's be actually fair about the intent, then. Osama didn't do so out of a feeling of sadism: He did so because he wanted to attack the West and fight so it stopped doing illegal and colonialist things in the Middle East.

Bush was APATHETIC about the consequences of enriching corporations and proving American strength. That's actually worse. At least Osama RECOGNIZED that civilian casualties would be an outcome and cared, one way or the other. Bush simply couldn't view Iraqis as even human or worthy of consideration.

Proportionally and statistically speaking, I'd guess that Jews probably are still on top of the list after numerous decades. And maybe you could throw in Americans in there are well. After all, those who refuse to see a Muslim connection in the Islamic extremist-led unrest of the vast majority of countries with high Muslim populations will usually, and sometimes even solely blame the actions of America and Israel.
There is also another form of hypocrisy, I think. It comes from those who try to believe - and make us believe at the same time - that being the most powerful man in the world, being President of the United States of America, is an easy job, or at least a job where mistakes and failures are not possible. In their hypocrisy, they will try to convince us and themselves that some other person or country could've done it better, but the reality is that they have no idea.

How hard is it to NOT bomb a country illegally?

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User voted To some extent, but I respect a non-Muslim person more.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

Hate to point this out to you, but many people condemn Christians, Jews, etc it's just that the big terrorist groups right now happen to be Muslim, from IS which is a Muslim group as you must be Muslim to join to the lone wolf Muslim terrorist.

As I pointed out in war you are allowed to attack your enemy. It's the price you pay during a war.

Tell me just had did Bush orchestrated a war? He didn't put Saddam in power, although the US did back him and propped him up in the beginning, and it could be said that the US was responsible for putting him in power. So wouldn't that mean we would be responsible for the mess he made? All Saddam had to do was step down, had he done that no war. But the world knew that Saddam had committed crime against humanity, as in any war civilians die, you can't name one war in which civilians didn't die.

Most of the world including Saddam thought he had WMD's so are you telling me Bush planted evidence all over the world just so he could go to war?

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

No one condemns CHRISTIANITY, qua Christianity, in the terms you do, at least in the West. Even very hardcore Muslim bigots are far, far more nuanced.

As I pointed out in war you are allowed to attack your enemy. It's the price you pay during a war.

Whose enemy? Iraqis were VICTIMS of Saddam Hussein, who had not attacked America. Would you defend Hitler's atrocities by this standard? Hell, Osama and everyone else could say literally this if we're going to throw international law, declarations of war, regard for civilians, just war (which is actually in the Koran by the way, the book you claim to have read and emphatically have not comprehended), etc. Do you see how your maxims break down?

Tell me just had did Bush orchestrated a war? He didn't put Saddam in power, although the US did back him and propped him up in the beginning, and it could be said that the US was responsible for putting him in power.

So because Bush's DAD and his buddies, many of whom were in Bush's cabinet by the way (remember how Rumsfeld PERSONALLY met with Saddam), but not Bush himself, Bush is not responsible? By that logic, Osama isn't responsible for 9/11 either: He didn't directly orchestrate it, and funding came from the UAE and Germany.

Bush pushed his intelligence agencies to flat-out lie about terror connections and WMDs. They then took those lies to the world, even after they had long since debunked. They even behaved illegally to quell dissent here (the Valerie Plame case). In public, he, Blair, and all of the rest of the warmongers changed their tune about what would justify an invasion. One day, it was WMDs. The next, it was terror. The next, it was just the fact that Saddam was in charge.

Of course we were responsible for the mess he made... so that would mean that Bush, Reagan, and everyone else involved should be tried for war crimes. Only Saddam got punished even though other people were involved. Funny how the brown guy always seems to hang, right? This is all LITERALLY my point. Worse, we were responsible for the damage done by the Gulf War and sanctions.

So you know what one does then? STOP. Stop doing the same things that led to the problem in the first place. Obey international law. Push the UN to do something legal to deal with the regime. Push for a war crimes trial. And if you have to topple the regime, create an actual democracy, not a corporate written Constitution.

Most of the world including Saddam thought he had WMD's so are you telling me Bush planted evidence all over the world just so he could go to war?

This is absolutely, empirically false. Even ISRAEL thought Saddam was completely harmless, even though they supported the invasion. Why do you think the US lost in the UN?

But even if Saddam had WMDs, invading him unilaterally was illegal, and thereby running the country like a colonial outpost was even more so.

Do I even need to mention Bush's backing of Islam Karimov, or his use of torture (yes, not just waterboarding, bona fide torture in violation of the Geneva Conventions), or his violations of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty? We are the biggest (in terms of military power), most violent state on the planet. But the excuses flow endlessly when it comes to us, yet the moment SOME Muslims do something you don't like, they're ALL guilty. So play the game honestly, Richard. Either admit Muslims aren't a monolith, or accept that Timothy McVeigh says something about you as a person (American or white or anything).

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User voted To some extent, but I respect a non-Muslim person more.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

Really the Quran condemns Christianity

9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

And he used WMD’s to kill Iraqis and when he was asked to step down he refused, the world thought he had WMD as Saddam’s advisers were even telling Saddam he had them. It wasn’t only the US but many other countries that said he had WMD and was killing Iraqis. Are you saying that the world should have just stood by as Saddam killing Iraqis?

Yes the US helped put Saddam in power, which is one of the reasons I state as why it was the US’s responsibility to remove him. Osama was the most historically notable commander, and Senior Operations Chief of al-Qaeda basically he was the head of al-Qaeda and just the leader of any organization he may not have been involved in day to day operations, but as the head he was reasonable for it action.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and France all agreed that there were WMDs. Even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he dispose of the WMD he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

Wow, didn’t know Bush had that much power to force all those intelligence agencies to lie, and to even get the UN to lie. That’s power.

Is the US perfect, no, is Islam perfect no, is anything perfect no. BTW I personally think the US should quit the UN. The UN is ineffective at best corrupt at worst.

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

And yet despite this millions of Muslims have Christian neighbors and live in peace with them, including the vast majority of Muslims in Europe.

So let's review the Bible, shall we?

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

I await eagerly you saying that Christians and Jews should never be the majority because their holy book celebrates genocide.

And he used WMD’s to kill Iraqis

WMDs provided by the West, and these atrocities were during the period of his greatest support, for which no one outside of his regime faced any real justice.

Oh, by the way? The U.S. has violated the NPT by not proactively disarming and by backing Israel which is a non-signatory nation, as well as crippling the CWC, and under Bush failed to vote for the BWC. All of that has helped to justify a norm of proliferation globally. Why is it acceptable that America, the country that SUCCEEDED at virtually exterminating its native population (Saddam failed at exterminating the Kurds), should be allowed to maintain a nuclear arsenal, again?

and when he was asked to step down he refused, the world thought he had WMD as Saddam’s advisers were even telling Saddam he had them. It wasn’t only the US but many other countries that said he had WMD and was killing Iraqis. Are you saying that the world should have just stood by as Saddam killing Iraqis?

Maybe the world should have stopped funding him, and those who did be brought to justice. The U.S. could do a tremendous amount to stop evil, terrorism and death in the world: stop causing it. None of which will ever lead you to say that Christians should never be a majority the way that they are in the U.S., of course.

Yes the US helped put Saddam in power, which is one of the reasons I state as why it was the US’s responsibility to remove him.

The people who have ruined a country have the responsibility to keep ruining it. Brilliant. And of course forget international law and treaties that we signed. When someone keeps breaking things, do you tell them to go back and try to fix the things they keep breaking? Or do you tell them to go the hell away and maybe just pay for the damages because they're not helping?

How about the idea that the U.S. had no right anymore to be involved in Iraq at all, and should have funded efforts undertaken by anyone else, including the U.N., to oust the dictator and bring him to justice? That idea was never even floated here because the idea is that we have the right to rule the world.

But, of course, that doesn't justify ANYTHING that happened after Saddam was ousted, so you are still an apologist for imperialism... when it is done by white people and Christians.

Osama was the most historically notable commander, and Senior Operations Chief of al-Qaeda basically he was the head of al-Qaeda and just the leader of any organization he may not have been involved in day to day operations, but as the head he was reasonable for it action.

And Bush was responsible for the torture of many people. Therefore, he should be executed, as should every general serving at that time. Do you ever play this game honestly?

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and France all agreed that there were WMDs. Even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he dispose of the WMD he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

This is flatly false. And every security expert on the planet was fully aware that

a) If Iraq had WMDs, it would be as a deterrent to an invasion or attack (illegal and colonialist, something you do not care about)
b) Attacking Saddam would lead to looting of WMDs

The fact that we found no WMDs indicates one of two things: There were none, or our attack let them get into the hands of other people. Either way, the invasion was illegal, unethical, and endangered global security.

Maybe that's why the majority of the world keeps identifying the U.S. as the biggest threat to global peace. So why should Christians be the majority of any country again?

By the way: Here's what Blix actually said. Do you have any more inaccurate, misleading and outright false things to say to try to minimize a war that would be illegal and immoral even if all your premises were true?

Wow, didn’t know Bush had that much power to force all those intelligence agencies to lie, and to even get the UN to lie. That’s power.

Yes, that IS power. The United States casts a VERY big shadow, and has the ability to very heavily influence the perspectives of the world: Through media, intelligence actions, etc. Numerous MI6 agents will tell you that the UK was under HUGE pressure by the U.S. to play along. Funny how you sarcastically dismiss a real possibility with no evidence to support your claims when it is a Christian country, but accept the flimsiest evidence to justify that Muslims can't be a majority. It's almost like you are bigoted and are reaching for justifications...

Is the US perfect, no, is Islam perfect no, is anything perfect no. BTW I personally think the US should quit the UN. The UN is ineffective at best corrupt at worst.

The UN is ineffective because the U.S. prevents it from being effective. The UN has accomplished what the U.S. screwed up recently: Getting Somalia much more under control, including bringing back the capital under the central control of the government. And they've also managed to massively scale back what is going on in the Congo. Even U.S. admirals have in the past admitted that "Sometimes in the United States we spend more time beating the United Nations up than we do figuring out how we can influence it and make it a more capable organization", Again, funny how you cite no evidence for any of your claims and end up being repeatedly and massively wrong.

By the way: The UN Security Council permanent members (China, Russia, France, the UK and the US) are all non-Muslim. Moreover, of the 50 founding members of the UN, only Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are Muslim, a rate of 10%. Again, please explain why Muslim majorities are bad even though Christian (and in the case of China Confucian/Taoist/Buddhist) nations keep on creating corrupt institutions like the UN. There's a simple reason why: For you, when Muslims do it, they're intrinsically evil (or their faith is); when Christians do it, well, we're "not perfect".

The only non-bigoted statement you've made is that nothing is perfect. So then there is zero reason to demonize Islam more than anything else.

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User voted To some extent, but I respect a non-Muslim person more.
0 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

Well, if Osama hadn't declared war, then you might have a point, but as he did declare war, he declared war twice once in 1996 and again in 1998, and in a war you are allowed to attack your enemy.

And if you had followed the press, you would have know that 64% of Americans had approved of military action against Iraq; however, 63% wanted a diplomatic solution rather than go to war There was also a growing anti-war movement.

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User voted Yes, I treat a Muslim person just like any other person.
2 votes,
Feb 3, 2016

How can a non-state actor declare war?

How can a state actor then retaliate against multiple state actors, one of whom was in no way involved and the other simply was the place the guy was allowed to stay?

So 37% DIDN'T want a diplomatic solution. At least 37% of those people were VERY comfortable with listening to Ann Coulter say we should nuke North Korea, just for fun. That's about a hundred million people, Richard, who wanted to bomb a country that had never bombed them, who were at the least misinformed and likely also deeply bigoted, racist, and religiously chauvinist. Coulter has since sold books, appeared on FOX, and has been welcomed when she is an advocate for mass murder. So why the hell doesn't Ann Coulter say anything about every American? Why doesn't Bush? Why doesn't Gary Ridgway, or any other Christian serial killer? Why don't psychos here who call for a new Crusade?

You do know how many Muslims have declared fatwas against the kinds of thingsyou're talking about, right? Muslims hate ISIS. Really: This is a verifiable, empirical fact.

So why the hell is it that the actions of less than .1% of all Muslims tarnish Muslims, but the actions of the entire American military do not tarnish Americans (or Christians in this Christian-majority nation)?

The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

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User voted To some extent, but I respect a non-Muslim person more.
1 vote,
Feb 3, 2016

From a survey of 11 countries Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Malaysia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Palestinian Territories, Senegal, Tunisia and Turkey. So it’s safe to say that given the number of countries we can get a good idea of what the average Muslim thinks.

pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns...xtremist-groups/

Al Qaeda 57% of Muslims from this poll had an unfavorable opinion of this group, 13% had a favorable opinion of al Qaeda, let's assuming this poll represents the average Muslim that would mean 195,000,000 have a favorable opinion of al Qaeda in 2013.

Read the survey, and you’ll find a majority of Muslims in some countries think that suicide bombing can be justified if you include rarely, and even if you cut it down to often or sometimes, you still get over 25% of Muslims in some countries that think suicide bombing can be justified. That doesn't mean they would blow themselves up, but they can justify it in their mind.

But let’s go with the lowest numbers, let’s assume that Pakistan is the closest to what Muslims really feel about suicide bombing, which would give us 3% of Muslims who think it often or sometimes justified. That 45 MILLION Muslims who’d think suicide bombing is often or sometimes justified. BTW I only used 1.5 billion instead of your number of 1.6 billion so the numbers would be larger if I used your number. I also have survey number from other western countries and can post them if you wish.

It's polls like that and many others mean I don't automatically respect Muslims, but then again I don't automatically respect Christians, Jew, etc. Are there good Muslims who respect people of other religions, yes, are there bad Christians, yes. But given recent history (the whole draw Muhammad thing, something that isn't in the quran BTW), and polls like this it does make it harder for me to respect a Muslims.

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