100
User voted I don't download music and films illegally.
opinion
6 votes
Apr 1, 2015

Yes, it's immoral. It's stealing. People record music or make films to sell copies of them and make money. Do you eat at a restaurant and run out on the bill? Do you fill up your gas tank at a gas station and drive off without paying? It's essentially the same thing. Maybe you're one step removed, like someone stole the gasoline and then gave it to you, or stole food from a drive-up window and gave it to you to eat. You're receiving stolen goods. The person who gave them to you didn't have the right to give them to you.

And why be so cheap? You can download a song from iTunes for 99 cents or at most $1.29. I used to buy 2 songs for that much on a 45 rpm record back in the '70's. You adjust that price for inflation and you're probably paying about as much per song as I did back then. Tell me what else you can buy as cheap as you could forty years ago.

A movie might cost as much as $12 in the theater, but if you wait a few months, you might be able to see it in a second-run theater for $5, and after a few more months, you can subscribe to Netflix for $7.99 and not only see that $12 dollar movie, but as many movies as you can watch in 30 days and then cancel the subscription if you feel like it. Or you can buy a gently used copy of the DVD or Blu-Ray disc of that movie on eBay for a few bucks.

If you don't think the musician or the actor "deserves" the money, go try writing a song and recording it and see how hard it is to do it well and to find someone willing to pay to listen to you sing it. Go try and write and direct and act in a movie and make it well enough that people want to see it. And if you manage to do either of those things, see how you feel when someone steals your work and gives it away to people.

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75
main reply
4 votes,
Jul 27, 2015

It is not stealing if the film or music you're talking about never made it to your city. I'd say it's moral to download and share unknown movies which you cannot buy through normal means. I'd draw the line at having to ask somebody else to buy it for me, but your mileage might vary.

But okay, say this is an exceptional situation, and it doesn't happens a lot. If you can choose between buying something and getting it for free, why should you pay? Because the poor artist will starve without you? Because it's up to you to be the shining beacon of ethics among the people living in your society? Nah, it's only to avoid everybody doing the same thing. You should pay because, statistically speaking, "you" is a lot of people. The "you wouldn't download a car" is, at the same time, speaking to the you you and speaking to other you's sitting all around you.

But isn't this the case with restaurants and gas stations too? You should pay them too. However, it too often ends up being not a matter of "should" nor of "paying". it's not like you should pay them. It's more like you can't get your goods in a free manner, and as such, not paying is out of the picture, except for stealing.

Is stealing bad? Sure, you are being evil towards them, and law has all the right to act accordingly towards you. But this is not at all the same thing as downloading free music. When you go to thepiratebay and search for the latest bdrip of The Avengers 2, you're not expending a limited good at the expense of others. You're not even making the owner spend any more money than what they already spent. It is, at best, a victimless crime, and at worst, the only sound choice. (Though if you want to be a good person, because that's really one of our strongest moral compasses as nowadays humanity, you should invest in some way after a thing you liked, mostly to show your thanks but also to set an example).

However, pirating does not make me feel guilty not because of any of the reasons exposed here. Those are facts, ethical opinions and attempts at sound reasoning. My feelings towards pirating are positive because activism. By pirating, i'm pushing towards a change in society, which i expect will end with things being free for the end-user yet remunerated for the creator. Who would have to be the mediator in such a case? Why, the state, of course. Or maybe NGO's, or maybe syndicates, i don't know. Not a lawyer, and my feelings for sure aren't one either.

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0 votes,
Jul 27, 2015

But why would the film/show or music not have made it to your city though (I admit that I'm focusing on your first sentence as I see it as the main argument of your comment)?

Isn't downloading "just" an easier alternative to legally broadcasting movies and (syndicated) shows (which - aside of artistic value - can be seen as conglomerates of deals and agreements)? To me, seeing a (foreign) movie on television is like: the zenith of human civilization. Movie theatres are a different story, as cinematic success is still measured by box office gross points [1] and theatres have to estimate whether enough people will show up (so maybe it's the same story) to break-even.

Also, if my interest would go out to mainly South-Korean movies/popular culture, I'd rather just try to live there and surround myself with it instead of downloading it and appreciate the splendour from a laptopscreen. Yes, I know there is hardware to improve the personal watching experience, but if you are able to invest in that (or extra terabit hard drives and ripping technology), why not invest in something that benefits your (or for sake of example the South-Korean) community (like a movie-theatre or television station)? To me, that's pushing towards a long-term change in society.

I even feel guilty watching(/streaming) a music video on YouTube, when I can wait for half a day before it's broadcasted on a music broadcasting channel (I think it's worth the wait).

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100
1 vote,
Jul 27, 2015

Believe it or not, this is the case in most third world countries. Take mine for example. We have a quite huge piracy industry. You can buy dvd's at 3 per 1 dollar or Blurays at 2 dollars each, but only because they are not official. The vendor downloads movies from a pirating website, burns them on a bluray and fixes the menu or adds subs before selling. They can do it at request, too. This is not as common on the provinces where there are no cinemas, but it still happens, even more so with local productions.

This, aside from being a commercially sound idea (it drove out Blockbuster back in 2003!) is a method for watching things that you could not watch through any other mean, period. Sure, i have internet and the benefit of using netflix or google movies or something else, but this is a privilege most of my country-mates can't count on. Cinema theaters are starting to be a thing, but even then, they will only grant access to the movies of the now. It won't be until they get internet, and get internet alphabetization, and get enough money to spend on such things.

Maybe this is proof that i am desensitized. Or maybe it is proof that i value more the customer than the creator. After all, i'm not a creator myself, as you rightfully say in your first talk. Do you see any other way out? I might be missing a lot of things, given that it's a local reality i'm somewhat entangled on, too.

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0 votes,
Jul 28, 2015

I was unaware that Peru is a third world country (seems like a rich culture to me, and in terms of money/social mobility, the one peruvian person I know graduated at the same University where he was a year my senior and came from a family wealthier than mine - so my views might be a bit skewed based on personal knowledge and prejudice/lack of actual knowledge).

Offtopic: I thought the whole first/New/third world division (or hierarchy) was constructed (by people from the first world) to express the order in which the planet was "discovered" or something (by people from the first world). Not who has it better/worse than who (a moralising sentiment someone from this supposed "first world" has to deal with daily; although the resulting irritation on my part probably wasn't what you deserve/were after in this discussion, I feel the need to address this phenomenon for personal satisfaction).

Ontopic: Using Netflix is a privilege? More like a luxury. Since when has entertainment become more important than food, shelter and water (and togetherness)? I'm assuming here that Netflix is mainfully a provider for entertainment, as I would rather watch local/national crummy tv-shows with friends than stream/download on demand by myself.

Reading about Peru's situation on this particular subject, using Netflix does seem like the 'better' option though (economy-wise... I think). However, I don't understand the connection you make between cinema theatres and internet alphabetization. Ultimately, the function of the Internet is to share (not to be confused with exchange) theoretical knowledge and have discussions in a decentralized way, which is the quickest but not by definition the best way.

I wouldn't say that you are desensitized, as you see it as a problem and are open to a way out. Being a movie buff myself, I think people need to remember what really matters for themselves and their culture - not what other people('s culture) make them believe "should" matter.

This might sound a bit weird, but how familiar is your culture with on-stage drama or theatre? I mean, why would you sit down and watch movies/browse Internet anyway. That one person from Peru I know is a super outgoing and social person, and not (intellectually/emotionally) dependent of technology like most people of my country are.

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User voted Yes, a bit.
0 votes,
Aug 29, 2015

You can still watch Netflix like if it was a TV on your computer, with friends, and all that.

although, what Teku said is 100% true. In a country like mine (South America), I can't get a hold of many many movies, or songs. AT ALL.
If I like a band, of course I'd love to contribute to them, help them raise, get money and all. But I can't even listen to them. All I can normally do is just listen to their music to whatever method possible, or pirate it. Though, I try to pay back for the "pirating" for spreading the word. I try to show the band to people, regardless from where they're from. I try to get them known so people with possibilities WILL be able to help them.
If I lived in a first world country, I wouldn't even hesitate to buy it... thing is, I just can't.
I can't find another way out either. I feel bad for the artists and producers and all; but at least there should be a way to "pay them back" like I said, about spreading the word and all that.
Even with Netflix, piracy, or what you can find on the internet, I still think it's okay -if you don't have any other choice.-
We don't mean no harm.

Also, yes, you've got to experience you're country. But that doesn't mean that you have to do ALL that your "traditions" say, and all these stereotypes that people say. You are free to choose on your own, and what you like the most. If you're on vacation, enjoy the country, if you don't want to: don't. If you like your country, good, embrace it! If not, well, bad luck.

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0 votes,
Aug 30, 2015

"In a country like mine (South America), I can't get a hold of many many movies, or songs. AT ALL."

How it this so? Aren't most of these movies and songs not allowed by your government where you're from (South America is not really a country though, like Europe isn't a country either)? Or is there no economy to import these films and music?

I suppose there is a lot of music 'over there' (again, not sure from which particular country you are from, and although I agree with you up to a point on choosing your own traditions I assume there is some difference amongst South-American countries) that I don't know, or can get a hold of over here. But that's mostly because they'll only ship it to stores when they suspect that enough people will buy it to cover the shipping costs - which is textbook economy you'll find anywhere in the world.

Mind you, we don't have that many record stores left compared with a decade ago, because of piracy and online webshops. Also, I believe some streaming services like Spotify, Google Play and Tidal aim to pay artists per play. Especially in the case of Spotify (perhaps the Netflix of music - based on my non-existent knowledge of Netflix), a larger collective of listeners yields a higher pay per artist[1]. It might work for you too, as you say you feel bad for the artists and producers. It's a very handy program for sharing music as well.

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User voted Yes, a bit.
linked reply
0 votes,
Nov 4, 2015

"How it this so? Aren't most of these movies and songs not allowed by your government where you're from (South America is not really a country though, like Europe isn't a country either)? Or is there no economy to import these films and music?"

There is imported music and all - but there's barely any of it since it's not in a "high demand". I am almost guaranteed they are allowed and that there is no problem with such - I like some bands that aren't very famous and if I wanted to have a physical CD or etcetera - I'd be unable to. If I ship it or import it - it'd cost me a lot of money. My country doesn't really allow us to use dollars other than for business or "vacations", there's a lot of taxes and my country's currency is undervalued by a lot compared to the dollar.
I don't like credit cards or digital CDs - they're just not the same and credit cards are just a whole scam technique in my opinion - but that's another story. I understand what goes on about those programs - but I just don't really have a way to buy from such, and I don't like digital-only things when I could have a physical copy.

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