For all those who said no, I have one question:
Why not?
Reply to this opinion
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
Discussion (34)
::unhide-discussion::
Islam is incompatible with our ideas of democracy, Islam codifies gender inequality and discrimination against non-Muslims. If elected it would his (under Islam Bukhari (88:219) - "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler." so it wouldn't be a woman) duty to force Islam onto the country, with all the laws that go with it. So as a cleric Sufi Muhammad, recently put it, "True Islam permits neither elections, nor democracy."
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
This is an interesting answer. But I wonder if you would also still consider voting for a follower of Christianity or Judaism considering not only are both of those religions closely related to Islam, but they also codify slavery and stoning in the Old Testament (among other outdated and unpleasant things).
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Given that most, by most I mean over 80+%, of Christians and Jews, don't follow the Bible or the Torah and just pick and choose what parts they do follow, it's not that big of a problem. But if the candidate was standing up saying how they would return the US to the bible, etc I would NOT vote for them.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Would you therefore be willing to vote for a Muslim who didn't follow the ideology you have highlighted in your original reply? I imagine there are plenty of Muslims who do not follow those teachings, but would you still refuse to vote for them based solely on their religion?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Is a person a Christian if they don't follow the bible or Jewish if they don't follow the Torah? I say no, so if a Muslim isn't following the Quran, then are they truly Muslim? Like I've said in this thread, if a Christian were to stand up and say I'm a Christian and we need to return to the bible, I wouldn't vote for them. Odds are if they aren't following the Quran they won't say they are Muslim. So basically no problem. But the question is "Would you consider voting for a Muslim to be the president of your country?" Which to me means the person is following their religion and is claiming to be Muslim.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Well in your previous response you did characterise Christians and Jews who did not follow their respective religious texts as still being Christians or Jews. But then I suppose we have to make the distinction between textual or modernised interpretations of each text, which I would say would allow someone to remain part of their religion but not as strong an adherent as many more traditional members. What I know of the Muslims I know is that they often take a less textual approach and still call themselves Muslim when asked what their religion is. Would you say that people like that would still not be getting vote?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
At best they would have to explain the quran at every press conference, remember we're talking presidential election not local and all the pundits would be taking shots. He's a muslim and this is what the quran says. What I was trying to point out, badly perhaps, is that just because a person calls themselves a Christian or a Jew, if they don't follow their religion are they really a Christian or a Jew? Like I've stated several times If a Christian or a Jew for that matter would to say we need to follow this book and all the law contained within, I wouldn't vote for them either.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
All reasonably fair, but my point is would you still be unwilling to vote for a Muslim candidate for President even if they had been shown to neither believe nor follow the extracts of Islamic text that you oppose? If you were willing then surely your opposition would be along ideological grounds, rather than religious.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Let's assume that said candidate came out and said "I'm a non-practicing Muslim." said candidate didn't attend pray, mosque, etc. In which case I would say they weren't a Muslim and then I would look at their ideologies and see if there were a good fit. I think I made it plan, that the question is implying the person is a practicing Muslim who believes in the quran.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
I would agree someone who claims to be a Muslim but does not visit the mosque for prayers is not entirely so, however let us assume they do attend the mosque for prayers but hold more progressive views on social matters such as those that you drew attention to earlier. Would you still refuse to vote for them?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
A progressive Muslim is one who is firmly grounded in the Quran. Progressive Islam is not about reforming or altering the Quran itself, but rather reforming the interpretations of it. Now there are many parts of the Quran very clear and wouldn't be open to interpretation, many of therm are social matters. So a progressive muslim might say it's OK to drawing Muhammad, after all there is nothing in the quran about drawing Muhammad, and modest dress is open to interpretation. But, there is no equality between genders, there is no equality between people of other faiths in the quran. Such view are, I my opinion, incomparable with a republic or a democracy, therefore I wouldn't vote for them.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
But if this Muslim did not believe in gender inequality himself, and had a record of challenging it, then would you vote for them? Because while you oppose the gender inequality in the Quran you can still say similar statements about people who are outwardly Christian and follow the Bible, a text which also suggests gender inequality as well as, to go back to my earlier point, condoning slavery.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
If you've read my earlier posts I think you'd see that I've been consistent, if a Christian were to come out and say the bible needs to be the law of the land, I wouldn't vote for them.
But, what you're trying to find out is at what point would I say a Muslim isn't a Muslim but is only giving lip service to Islam. If, like most "Christians", said Muslim were to I say believe in the Quran BUT we need to take modern times into account, and not all parts of the Quran need to be followed, are they still Muslim? Or in the case of the Bible are they still Christan? I think not. I don't think a "Christian" who doesn't follow the bible is a Christian nor would I think a Muslim who doesn't follow the Quran is a Muslim
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
You see I believe and have found that there are Muslims who do pray (crucially) and outwardly say they follow Islam but do NOT believe in things like the gender inequality that you highlight, as well as other views which could be described as antiquated.
My question is would you still not vote for a Muslim, who went to the mosque every day for prayers and did not favour the parts of Islamic texts that you yourself do not support?
In the same way that you may vote for someone who is outwardly a Christian, practises as such but has repudiated the unfavourable parts of the Bible I mentioned earlier?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Again you're asking at what point do I consider a muslim a muslim, and I think I made that clear. If you're a christian who say we need to ignore these parts of the bible are you a christian? If a muslim say we need to ignore these parts of the quran are they muslim?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
I believe a Muslim can oppose the gender inequality you cite and still be a Muslim because the practise of a religion is more about prayer than belief in all of the contents of a religious text. Moreover I know Muslims who do pray but do not believe these things that you do not favour. I consider them Muslim, they consider themselves Muslim, and they do not conform to the writings and opinions of hundreds of years ago. I would vote for them because what religion they happen to practise should be irrelevant and they do not believe in policies that I would also find problematic.
So to answer your final question succinctly: yes they are a Muslim because they go to a mosque to pray, regardless of their personal opinions about what is written in the Quran or wherever else.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
So you claim that a Muslim who doesn't follow the "true" word of "God" that is in the Quran, is a Muslim, but would that make them a heretic? And therefor not a "true" Muslim?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
You can say the same thing about Christians not following the Bible literally, particularly the Old Testament. I wouldn't call them heretics, I'd say they rationally and pragmatically follow a religion in a modern world unimaginable in the era when these religions were established.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
And I do call them heretics, and according to the bible, the quran, torah they should be put to death.
When a person says I'm a muslim what they are saying is these are my core values, simple
Most religious text aren't a place to get your morals, unless you approve of slavery, rape, murder, etc.
Like I've said over and over, (and I feel like I'm going in circles) I wouldn't vote for anyone who would point to the bible, torah, quran and say this is what we need to go back too. You keep trying to find the point where I would consider someone who says they're a muslim and I wouldn't consider them one. Or as I would say a muslim in name only.
So to make this as simple as I can, if the only thing I knew about a canidate was a statement where they would say "I'm a muslin" "I'm a christian", "I'm a jew" or "I'm an atheist" the atheist would get my vote every time.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
I understand what you are saying, however I take issue with your rather narrow definition of what makes somebody a follower of a certain religion.
In particular I do not believe that anybody's religion should exclude them from holding elected office. Fundamentally their religion is their business and should not be relevant to the electorate. That should apply regardless of whether they are Muslim, Jewish, Christian or Atheist.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
It question wasn't should a muslim be excluded from holding office, just if I would vote for them.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Well I also do not believe someone should be discriminated against on account of their religious beliefs. Their religion should not be an important factor in the minds of voters because it is the business of the candidate alone.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
But it is an important factor, if you look at what they believe and find it incompatable with what you believe why would you vote for them? Would you vote for a satanist? Even if they claimed they are really following the ways of sattan?
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
::unhide-discussion::
Don't be ridiculous, there has never been a serious contender for office who was a Satanist. You're reducing the argument to absurdity.
It isn't an important factor, no political campaign has ever been fought on the basis of religion in Great Britain before because we focus on their policies and their prospects as a leader.
reply
subscribe
share/challenge
flag
load further replies (3)
Load more (6) in reply to Richard Wee's post (Islam is incompatible with our ideas of democracy, Islam codifies gender inequality and discrimination against non-Muslims. If elected it would his (under Islam Bukhari (88:219) - "Never will succeed...)
Load more (1) in reply to the opinion
Challenge someone to answer this opinion:
Invite an OpiWiki user:
OR
Invite your friend via email:
@
click for template
OR
Share it:
Share this opinion via OpiWiki smartlink:
OR
Opinion's page
Click the @ to see full topic's discussion.
Status:
Active
Replies:
34
Main replies:
2
subscribe
For new main reply notification
Voting
(109 votes)